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Stan
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject: Extended radius arms Reply with quote

Do you know of Anyone who installed extended radius arms mainly for road handling/manners and not necessarily for the increased wheel travel ?
The '68 wanders more than I like { they wandered brand new also} and some of it seems to be related to the ruts or lack of in the road. I'm talking highway / freeway stuff.
I'm thinking maybe the extended arms might negate some of the Bronocs reaction to varying road conditions. They might also allow me to get a little more caster than the 7* bushings are giving me.

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DirtDonk
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, some are running them for that reason, but it's an expensive way to gain 4 degrees of caster, so most do not use them just for this unless they want some additional wheel travel anyway.
The main issue with adding even more caster through twisting the axle is that most EB's are dangerously close to running into u-joint binding issues with more caster. Some can get away with more though, so look at your own and you can see if you have more room to move.

The main issue of the longer arms on the street then, becomes the additional roll (not roll-over though!) potential. By reducing the anti-sway effect of the shorter torsion bars (these things really are acting as torsion bars after all) has brought up many discussions of a feeling of more leaning into corners. Similar to those using the inboard rear shock mounts report.
Good shocks can minimize this, as can adding actual anti-sway bars. But then you're into it for even more money and engineering (and brain power) than you originally bargained for.

So, bottom line is do you know what your caster is now? If not, I would spend the money to have it measured (or measure it yourself if you can) to see just where you stand. This will let you know if it's worth it.
The ONLY way to gain more caster without experiencing the negative aspects is to cut-n-turn the steering yokes on the ends of the axle tubes. This way you can go down to 2° C-bushings to get a better pinion angle and dial in as much caster as you want.

So that's the negative side. What's actually got you going on? How is your Bronco acting? And how is it set up? I know I should know by now, but I forget details.
If you're running a lift without a dropped pitman arm and trackbar bracket, that would be my first step. Even with just 2.5" suspension lift you can feel it.
If you have one of the replacement tie-rods with two adjusters, what angle did you set up the center-link with? This can be a HUGE thing where steering feel is concerned.

What else has been done?

Good luck.

Paul

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'71 Bronco - 302 4v
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TonyNokes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul nailed it! It would be helpful to know what the real behavior is so we can help diagnose the issue as many folks suffer from bump steer due to poor trackbar - draglink geometry.

I installed along arms years ago and it took a lot of effort to get my on-road manners back! I had to install stiffer springs and a swaybar to make it safe on-road.

I hate to mention this because Paul is from Wild Hoses and is very knowledgeable and helpful but Duff just announced they are making a stock length version of their long arms that has additional caster built in. If you determine it is a caster issue that cannot be fixed with bushings alone this would be a good option for you.

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66' 5.8L SEFI Super Charged, 4R70W, 4.88, 35" BFG's. Hydroboost, D44 w/trac-lock, HD axles. 9" w/ARB, Dutchman axles, Trusses and Lincoln disks all around, F150 PS, factory PTO winch & bumper, 3.5" suspension lift, 2" body, 14" 7100's Bilstiens, CAGE arms & springs, TRO, OBA, Yorkston Trackbar conversion, 3 fuel tanks...
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Stan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies Paul and Tony especially about the negatives with the extended arms.
I had an alignment check 5-6 years ago and unfortunately can't find the paper work for that BUT I do plan on doing it again to know what I'm working with . I do remember At the time though all my measurements were dead center of all the ORIGINAL specs . {Only as an example: if Caster specs are 1-3 mine was 2 and if Camber is 2-4 mine was 3 .}
The guy doing it was well experienced and familiar with D-44s , TRO , 1 ton steering linkage and etc . He said the original specs were incorrect though and I really needed more Caster and less Camber . Don't know if this is true but i'm sure you guys have heard/ know more about that than I.
What i've got is a D -44 , a 2 1/2 " suspension lift , 4x4x2 steering gear , F -150 knuckles and disk brakes , 1 ton Chevy TRO and drag link , dropped trac bar bracket and a raised bracket to align the drag link with the trac bar . I installed " the cure " from Ruff Stuff to help eliminate the drag link roll . All the bushings are fairly new , i installed new wheel bearings and ball joints when i did the knuckle swap . Hmm - newer tires , tru trac in the back , new 4 wheel disk brakes .
The problem is it'll drive straight enough that in some places i can relax my grip on the steering wheel so I'm not actually touching it {40 -60 mph }then it'll just decide to "float " right or left . Not sharp but kind of like water skiing without the "rudder " - LOL .
I've thought about it being a PS Gear issue , or a dragging brake or --
I'm not opposed to changing the 1 ton/DOM chevy stuff { it was my 3 rd choice at the time } or maybe pulling the steering gear out and having it gone through although it Shouldn't be bad .
I could post some pictures if it helps -
Anyway thanx again

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TonyNokes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stan, based on your description I believe you are not dealing with bump steer. I agree with the alignment guy, with the much larger than stock tires you should have a bit more caster and toe than the stock specs call for.

You could dial in a little more “toe in” and see if it improves the tracking since you can do this at home for free. You could also swap in the next degree up C-bushings and see if that fixes it as it will probably cost less than an alignment shop visit. Otherwise, I would go to the alignment shop and get Camber, Caster and Toe checked. Camber usually doesn’t cause a problem with tracking unless it is way off or uneven.

When I did my long arms I had 7degree bushing that I reused so I was up to 11degrees total (if I remember right) and it handled weird. The alignment guy I took it too said it was because I had too much caster, which I didn’t think was possible at the time but it is… switching to a 2 degree fixed it.

You can check for brake drag by checking the wheel temps after a drive, they should be even from side to side both front and back.

If you have some slop in the steering gear you can adjust it a bit with the top set screw unless the slop is in the lower sector shaft bearing, then you need a rebuild.

Good luck!

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66' 5.8L SEFI Super Charged, 4R70W, 4.88, 35" BFG's. Hydroboost, D44 w/trac-lock, HD axles. 9" w/ARB, Dutchman axles, Trusses and Lincoln disks all around, F150 PS, factory PTO winch & bumper, 3.5" suspension lift, 2" body, 14" 7100's Bilstiens, CAGE arms & springs, TRO, OBA, Yorkston Trackbar conversion, 3 fuel tanks...
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Stan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't thought about checking the wheel temps -that could eliminate one possibility .
I've got 7* C bushings installed. When i bought this thing it wandered considerably for several reasons and one of the things that helped was taking out the 2* c bushings that were in it and replacing with the 7 *.
There is a little slop in the steering - how much - not much but a little . I did have issues with the 4x4x2 box when i bought it . On slight turns it would just take off on a 90* - luckily i never got over 20 mph on the maiden /test drive. I took the box to a local rebuilder and he said whoever put it together virtually bypassed the - bypass valve inside the steering box. He went through it and all seemed ok but that was 6-8 years ago so maybe i should pull it out and have it checked .

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DirtDonk
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely like to see pics Stan. Even if you've got it all dialed in, it's nice for us to see just in case something off to the side is off to our eyes.
And how long ago did the bearings get changed/adjusted? Did you do it per factory spec, or per youtube video or other online source? Many variations there, and most are wrong.

What about air pressures? You're not running the max are you? Likely you'll find that you like about 28 to 30 in the front, and 24 to 28 in the rear. But obviously that varies per individual Bronco and person's expectations.

Toe in like Tony mentioned. Definitely at least play around with it. You can easily change it a tiny amount and drive it for a few days to see what you think. If it doesn't get better by increasing or decreasing it, you can always go back to where you are now if you mark where you started.

Did you verify from the get go that your steering box is perfectly on-center? That's the place it all starts. How everything else from the steering wheel to the draglink fit all depends on keeping the box centered when the tires are pointed straight ahead.

When it comes right down to it, do the test where a helper racks the steering wheel back and forth while you lay under the front and watch stuff. You might find any number of things, including that your tie-rod is still rolling more than you think. But at your theoretically shallow angle (bigger box and TRO) your roll is probably not as bad as others have.

Good luck. But definitely post up some pics.

Thanks

Paul

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'71 Bronco - 302 4v
3.5" WH/Skyjacker Lift
33 x 11.50 x15 Thornbirds on 15x7 Enkei's
Kayline soft top
Hanson bumpers
Dual batteries, Large 1G alt.

WWW.WILDHORSES4X4.COM Mr. Green
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Stan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll see if I can remember how to post pictures here . The site has't had much traffic lately so it's been awhile. I have to use the correct camera or put it on the right computer so i can dumb down the photo -
I thought i put every thing together correctly but never hurts to triple check. Hard to believe parts would be worn out already but with the quality of things lately certainly not unheard of.
The ride and the wander definitely are effected by the tire pressure . I experiment and try to find the sweat spot . You're right I'm running about 28psi in the front and 24 in the rear . A couple of days ago i lowered the pressure in the right rear by about a # as it felt like it was pulling to the left . That SEEMED to help but haven't had a chance yet to drive it on some of the roads that give me an issue.
I've tried to determine how much roll i'm getting with the 1 ton chevy stuff and "the cure " by marking a couple of "control points" . I can't say what it does while i'm driving but seems to return to the orignal way i've aligned the tie rod and drag link .
Stan

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DirtDonk
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, you have to watch it while it's doing it to determine just how much it's rolling. But it's a virtual guarantee that it is to at least a certain degree.
Lots of things show their weaknesses when stuck between the weight of the tires on the ground with the weight of the Bronco on top of them and the torque of the steering system working against it all. In fact, this is just about the only way to find if your frame is cracked beneath the steering box.

Well worth a few minutes of your time.

Paul

_________________
'71 Bronco - 302 4v
3.5" WH/Skyjacker Lift
33 x 11.50 x15 Thornbirds on 15x7 Enkei's
Kayline soft top
Hanson bumpers
Dual batteries, Large 1G alt.

WWW.WILDHORSES4X4.COM Mr. Green
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Stan
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We'll see if these will post . I've got three suspects , one that the drag link/tie rod connection is rolling, two that there something wrong with the gear box and three either i have a rear brake dragging causing the trutrac to "work " or something is going on with the trutrac. Driving around town a few days ago it was chirping considerably every time i made a turn and not necessarily a sharp fast turn but always from a stop. I'm going to try to eliminate em one at a time.


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SHAWN
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow Stan how long did those take to post, aren't you on dial-up?! Laughing

Shawn.

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Stan
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha Ha Shawn ; i still get recurring nightmares about the dialup Odyssey . I think i got better at sending smoke signals.
Stan

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DirtDonk
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well all the 1-ton setups roll to a certain extent. And the older (and looser) they get, the more the tendency to roll.
Are you able to get someone to rack the wheel back and forth while you watch to see what else might be going on?

Mild wandering is often a loose trackbar as well, so doing that test would let you look for even a tiny amount of movement in the trackbar. When mine was wandering, it turned out to be the lower bolt/stud having broken it's weld. The nut was still super tight, but that didn't keep the bolt from "rocking" slightly. Enough to let things get a little bit loosey.

And even if the steering is new-ish, they still wear out sooner than you would think. Certainly the 1-ton stuff usually wears out quicker than the original stuff did. Not that it's not beefier than stock, but all of that constant rolling adds to the wear factor of the rod ends. So they can easily wear out much sooner than a stock type would.

Just a few more things to think on.

Paul

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'71 Bronco - 302 4v
3.5" WH/Skyjacker Lift
33 x 11.50 x15 Thornbirds on 15x7 Enkei's
Kayline soft top
Hanson bumpers
Dual batteries, Large 1G alt.

WWW.WILDHORSES4X4.COM Mr. Green
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